Curse

Sofia Sofia Sofia · Jun 04, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Keep It Simple, Stupid
KISS:

20% increase in the radii of AoEs

10% increase in the damage of non-AoE attack spells

Exhaustion decreased to 3 E grayout

1 extra E regen pip for every 4 on Energy Storage

Lordhelmos · Jun 04, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

This is the best idea I've heard in a very long time. Making spells buffable like a warrior or ranger can do with their attacks is the natural thing to do. In fact there should be as many glyphs as spells.

It would also be kinda neat if you could have kind of like a holographic tatoo for each glyph that you're using, and of *course* make them stackable. This may mean nerfing some of the existing glyphs, but not having them stackable is about as lame as not being able to use an enchant with a prep.

Also some better spells like this wouldn't hurt, would they?

Balefire: Target takes xx-xxx amount of damage. Target is teleported to their previous location x-x seconds ago.

Damage would be shadow type. In case none of you know the reference, what I mean by the teleporting is this. Say a warrior comes charging at your team. If you use balefire, he'll take damage and end up at the back of the map again, or wherever he was, potentially exposing a vulnerability in the enemy's
battle formation.

I think this spell should be renamed to Lag Spike.

Lordhelmos · Jun 04, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I agree that many of the suggestions overpower eles. I think eles just need a tweak not an overhaul.

Some ideas I think are useful are:

~Glyph Improvement:
Having glyphs last longer or behave like soul twisting is a great idea. I also like the idea of glyphs that are only activated by certain types of spells (I.e. Enchantments, Offensive spells, etc.) Its such a pain to use a glyph to cast maelstrom and have things mess up you throw on armor of earth to defend yourself against a teleporting assassin. Glyphs should be "smarter." Their operation in the game feels kind of sloppy.

~Simple non-elite E management skills.
EX:
Signet of Focus:
For 5 seconds all of your spells are disabled. Gain 7-10 Energy.
<Signet, Cast time: 1, Recharge time: 30, Cost: 0>

Power Trip:
For 15-30 seconds you suffer from -2 life degen but gain +1 energy regeneration.
<Enchantment Spell, Cast time: 2, Recharge time: 25, Cost: 5>

Ether Shield:
For 15 seconds you gain +1 energy regeneration for each hex your suffer.
<Enchantment Spell, Cast time: 2, Recharge time: 25, Cost: 5>

~Tweaks to existing useless spells.
EX: Add KD to lightning hammer.

~Better defense against lethal spike attacks.
EX:
Teinai's Barrier: (Earth)
For 10 seconds all damage over 50-25 from one source is negatated and Teinai's Barrier ends.
<Enchantment Spell, Cast time: 1, Recharge time: 20, Cost: 10>

Master Fuhon · Jun 05, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

One problem is that some of the non-elite energy managements are balanced for classes other than elementalists. A spell like "Fireball" is good only because it costs 15 more energy, 8 seconds of recharge, and 1 second cast time to get to "Rodgort's Invocation", which is a spell that people need to be afraid of once unleashed. And getting to Rodgorts only nets you some more instant damage, 3 seconds of burning, larger area of effect, and a guaranteed hit on the target you were aiming at.

Ether prodigy is frequently used to pay for 15 energy costs, but I've only seen one way to put together a build that can afford the 25 energy chunks on a consistent basis (Dual Attunement). Glyph of lesser energy is fine for a class with one 25 energy spell that they need to get off. But for an elementalist to get use out of it, you need to be able to save on at least two 25 energy spells in a row to make up for the fact that you didn't use an elite energy management.

For example, here's my skill management for a place like PvE tombs on a fire Elementalist: Fire Attunement, Glyph of Renewal, Power Drain, Mantra of Resolve. I have to use the glyph of renewal on my non-elite attunement to keep from becoming crippled by the enchant removal. Mantra of Resolve drains energy whenever getting interrupted, but I'd rather have mantra protecting my casts than to have to use 25 energy again to get a big spell off. And Power Drain is great, probably only because of that free feeling you get with fast casting spells that makes people want to spam 10 energy spells all the time. Glyph of Renewal keeps me from being crippled by the long recasts on the spells, and I find myself using the glyph on Fireball because its the only way to get damage out immediately on small groups.

Sometimes I look at suggestions like "increased burning" or some non-elite energy managements that seem more suited for another class and worry. When you are burning someone, the monk is getting better energy management on his "Mend Condition" than you are getting for damage.

And an elementalist without skill management is a complete joke. "Guys, wait for regen." "30 more seconds for recharge on spell please." "My Energy is 24 out of 81." "OMFG interrupts!!!" Most other elementalists need to be either part monk, or using a stance to keep them from being slaughtered. That kind of spam all the time wouldn't be tolerated in a PvP battle.

The elementalist class is just completely fragile, there's no chance of self-survival without your secondary. If there was more of a possibility of unloading area of effect on real people, then I wouldn't have any complaints about being weak on so many points. Skills are balanced for PvE mobs, who hold hands during battle so that they know who not to attack. It would be nice to have more secondary options beside Mesmer or Monk. This isn't like monks using energy management to put themselves over the top. This is more like using energy management to prevent being useless.

There are some area of effect spells that just require people to stand in them for an amount of time. I'm surprised to not see more comparisons with the superior method of PvP AOE in the game. We have rangers who walk up to targets and drop traps down right in front of them. Trapping is better than area of effect nuking, especially when the condition isn't inflicted immediately after casting (Meteor Shower, Eruption, Searing Heat).

I see some skills with great design (Chain Lightning/Rodgorts Invocation), where you can still do massive damage to a poorly spaced team who knows better than to stand in one place all the time. Chain Lightning is a good example because you can look at how multiple target skills are balanced based on area of effect. You hit 3 targets, do this damage, and pay this cost in energy/exhaustion/recharge. And balance the area of effect damage out by some kinds of numbers that would make sense for pvp (adjacent=2, nearby=3, in the area=4). The game shouldn't be balanced for the hypothetical "surrounded by 8 hydras in the desert scenario" because the farmer elementalist is already limited to timing interrupts/knockdowns of dumb enemies more than a warrior or monk is.

There are a few skills that are a good example of things that are being done right. Then you can follow that with a simple approach of more imitations of the skills that are good, less of the skills that are bad. There aren't enough skills that make the bad ones good, so glyph improvements have a limited effect. And I hate to see instant cast glyphs balanced more for ressurection spells (because those are pretty much the worst two penalties I could think of an elementalist being able to handle to save one spell). So keep in mind that your improvements have to limit the user in such a way that he is only using them on Elementalist spells.

And lastly, for the balance of skills we need to fix the ratio of PvP elementalist friendly skills. You can have a considerable amount of fun with Meteor Shower alone, so we don't need more than a few variations of this. Also limit the balance of the skill lines among skills more likely played by an melee class (Ride the Lightning should be a retreat skill, not rush you into melee range!). Sometimes the mind can be in the right place, but just thinking backwards... In reality, elementalist gets played more by people who intend to keep the more powerful enemies away from others.

draxynnic · Jun 05, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

On glyph comboes:

Glyph of Force (Earth or Air): 5e, 1s, 15r (for example)
Glyph. On the next spell you cast that causes knockdown, the knockdown time is increased by one second (to a maximum of three seconds). Glyph of Force has a 50% failure chance with Earth/Air magic less than 4.

Could make Ash Blast a lot more useful. At present, the only ways I can see it working without coordination with long-duration knockdowns from party members (or VERY good coordination with regular knockdowns) or summoning an Earthbind spirit (yay! Five second lead time!) are:

1) Start with Gale, and suffer the appropriate exhaustion penalty, then Ash Blast

2) Start with a water magic hex, then Gust (costing your elite slot), then finish with Ash Blast. Requires three attribute lines, which may or may not be a problem depending on your build and whether you are a primary or secondary Elementalist (I don't know about anyone else, but I rarely find it justifiable to have more than two secondary attributes, more commonly just one - runes make a difference, after all).

3) Lead with Grasping Earth, then Gust, then Ash Blast. Requires getting close to start off with (although hopefully, after being slowed, knocked down, and finally blinded, your target will let you get away with it).

4) Lead with Iron Mist, then Gust, then Ash Blast. Say goodbye to the damage from Gust and Ash Blast, and wonder why you didn't simply use Blinding Flash.

5) Lead with Lightning Surge (elite and exhausting) and timing appropriately

There may be others, but generally to get the blinding from Ash Blast you need to either be using Fast Casting (something I haven't been able to pull off yet myself, but maybe with more practise...) or be using a skill that has a long knockdown such as Gale or Gust, have a delayed knockdown or one from someone else's action and timing appropriately (this could be entirely third-party or from something like Thunderclap or Shield of Judgement which you can place and then expect someone else to set off for you) or extending the knockdown length to more than the one second casting time. It would also, for instance, help with the utility purpose of skills like EQ/DS, increasing the damage mitigation and strategic benefits from the area knockdown.

lishi · Jun 05, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

[Note: all with 12 to fire magic, not 16!]

Quote:

(Rodgort's Invocation) 40-130 basic dmg

Rodgard invocation is aready a very good skill , big area , 3 second of burning(42 damage) no need for the buff.

Quote:

(Incindiary Bonds) 2-6 seconds burning

i will rather make it a non hex so can be removed.

Quote:

(Double Dragon) no exhaustion

i rather have exaustion and the cool down reduced.

Quote:

(Fire Breath) 8-48 dmg per second

at 12 fire? what at 16 fire should do? 60 damage each second? overpowered.

Quote:

(Fire Ball) 20-120 dmg

Fireball is aready a good skill no need to change it

Quote:

(Fire Attunement) stance instead of enchantment

Attunement are very good skill , since they are one of best energy management on the game. their long recharge, relative long cast time and easy stripment are a drawback of their power.
Plus if fire attument is a stance why not elemental attumenement? in this way no double attunement and infinite energy.

it will be a better fix a duration of 25 sec @max fire , recharge 20 , cast time 0.25sec.

Quote:

(Flare) 30-70 dmg

70 ranged damage each 1.75 second at only 12 fire? why someone shold use a ranger anymore?

Quote:

(Immolate) 2-6 seconds burning

Quote:

(Fire Storm) double sized area of effect

yes increasing the range to nerby foe will be better.

Quote:

(Conjure Flame) 5-20

it will unbalace many ranger , warrior build.

Quote:

(Flame Burst) 20-133

flame burst is fine as it , dont overpower it.

Quote:

(Mind Burn) 10 mana, no exhaustion, 2-8 seconds burning

will still pretty worth less for many build.

Quote:

(Smoldering Ambers) 10 mana, 20-65 basic damage

fine

Quote:

(Inferno) 40-150 dmg

now it look like the poor version of Flame burst i rather change the skill completly

Quote:

(Bed of Coals) 4-8 seconds burning

Quote:

(Lava Font) 7-42 dmg per second

overpowered.

Quote:

(Lava Arrows) 10-35 dmg

Quote:

(Meteor) 10 mana, no exhaustion, 40-150 dmg, 2 seconds casting time

meteor give a unconditional AoE knockdown, if you look at kd skill all of them
1) cause exsaustion
or
2) are conditional
or
3) they make ppl lose all the adrenaline
or
4) are elite.

so meteor are fine , a small increase of damage are fine but not much as you say.

Quote:

(Meteor Shower) no exhaustion, 40-150 dmg per hit, 3 seconds casting time

near 180 damage for hit at 16 fire ?

with a right build cast it any 7-8 second with griph of renew?

each(15 without support from a party member)

no thanks.

making the first kd instant will be enough

Quote:

(Phoenix) 10 mana

fine

Quote:

(Searing Heat) 7-42 dmg per second

too much damage increase

Quote:

(Star Burst) 10 mana, 40-150 dmg per hit

too much damage increase

Quote:

(Teinai's Heat) 7-42 dmg per second

too much damage increase

Quote:

(Mark of Rodgort) 15 mana

fine..

Taking the current skill and doubling the damage are not a way of balacing the game.

Cybah · Jun 05, 2006, 10:54 AM // 10:54

rofl lishi, do you really think a damage increase of only 5% would change anything? I have my ele since a year and even 10% dmg increase won't be enough.

You think Meteor is fine with 30 sec recharge? You are joking. Knockdown for a second and 40 dmg every 30 seconds... wow. Really good skill!

I could counter your complete opinion but I have to eat.

Imp · Jun 05, 2006, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofia Sofia Sofia

1 extra E regen pip for every 4 on Energy Storage

oh hell no.

Cybah · Jun 05, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

and why not?

Imp · Jun 05, 2006, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

and why not?

are you freaking kidding.

15 energy storage. = 3 energy regen
along with all that extra energy, mix it with -1 energy items and you got 100 energy with more than 2 energy regen, without spells.

lishi · Jun 05, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

and why not?

becouse managing your energy require skill , in name of skill slot and player ability.

that will be too cheap and overpowered

lishi · Jun 05, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

rofl lishi, do you really think a damage increase of only 5% would change anything? I have my ele since a year and even 10% dmg increase won't be enough.

You think Meteor is fine with 30 sec recharge? You are joking. Knockdown for a second and 40 dmg every 30 seconds... wow. Really good skill!

I could counter your complete opinion but I have to eat.

meteor do 119 @16 fire , and dont try to tell me it do only 40 damage to ranger and warrior . they have a higher armor. a probrem who warrior , ranger , assasin,ritualist get as well , if you hit a caster is i remember well you will still do a decent amout of damage.

Necro and mesmer have armor ignoring damage but their damage number dont hit the 100+ number.(i can only think 2-3 spell who may do more)

Cybah · Jun 05, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

well thats maybe ~70 dmg every 30 seconds. warriors do with one adrenaline based skill 70 dmg every ~9 seconds. try to compare. knockdown with 3 second casting time is NOT good. you cant use meteor to rapid knockdown a player.

meteor would be fine with ~20 sec recharge and 1-2 sec casting time.

lishi · Jun 05, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

well thats maybe ~70 dmg every 30 seconds. warriors do with one adrenaline based skill 70 dmg every ~9 seconds. try to compare. knockdown with 3 second casting time is NOT good. you cant use meteor to rapid knockdown a player.

meteor would be fine with ~20 sec recharge and 1-2 sec casting time.

the fastest one is hammer bash, that require 6 hit of adrenaline and after this you lose adrenaline , it require to be in close combat and dont miss... 6 hit of hammer is not 9 second.

but i guess 2 sec of casting its fine

Cybah · Jun 05, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

that's why warriors got an higher armor... they are supposed to be close combat.

exiled mat · Jun 05, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

When you make all the spells more powerfull tere will be only one problem: Bosses with double damage....

Can you say Outch?

Cybah · Jun 05, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Anet should simply remove that bug from the game. Nothing more to say.

lishi · Jun 05, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

that's why warriors got an higher armor... they are supposed to be close combat.

So armor afflicted damage make less damage to them

Cybah · Jun 05, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

yes but warriors are not supposed to be good against all other classes. imho an ele should outdmg a warrior easily.

lishi · Jun 05, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

yes but warriors are not supposed to be good against all other classes. imho an ele should outdmg a warrior easily.

they do agaist multiple target, they dont agaist single target.